Transcript
In any case, that needs a lot more explanation from me. I’m going to have Zane come. Before he does so, would you join me in prayer?
Our gracious God and Father, we do thank You for the privilege we have to hear someone whom You have schooled in the Word of God, and who has a heart to deliver the truth to Your people in such a way that we can understand it, lay hold of it, and use it in our life. We pray, as we ask questions tonight, those questions would be an encouragement to us as we interact with Zane. We pray, Lord, that You might help him to give answers that would be according to the truth of Your Word. And yet, Lord, we know that no one knows all things, and we just thank You for bringing him here, and for this opportunity to explore the possibility of understanding maybe things that we’ve always wondered about. And we just thank You now, and pray Your blessing upon the service, in Jesus’ name. Amen.
I did want to mention that flyer here. We’ve got some lead questions to sort of get things going, and tonight the question-and-answer session is about prophecy and the end times. There are four lead questions to go into this, and I’ve got a couple more I told him about coming in. He says, “If you don’t mind, save those.”
Do believers receive an intermediate body when they die and go to be with the Lord until the day their physical bodies are raised out of the grave? Lewis Sperry Chafer taught, from 2 Corinthians chapter 5, that in some sense we’re given some kind of intermediate body the moment we die from this earth and our spirit ascends into heaven. I wonder what his thoughts were on that.
Another lead question is, in the resurrection, in the Rapture, how will our relationship to time and space change? He said some things to me about two or three weeks ago. We were talking about this, and I thought they were very interesting, but I thought that it’d be good maybe for you to hear what he had to say.
Third, what role will the Old Testament law have in the times following the Rapture? I think Fred brought that question up, and I know that he’s been dealing with that.
And fourthly, are lost people judged and condemned because they have not believed in Jesus Christ, or because of their works? John 3:18 talks about the person who believes in Christ. Revelation, it seems clear, says they’re going to be judged according to their works. How does this all tie together? So there’s four questions to sort of get us going, and he’ll give us—he’s going to answer those questions in any order he feels comfortable with. Then he’ll give some chances for you to interact, follow-up questions to those questions. And then, at the conclusion, you can ask any question you want that’s related to the field of prophecy and end times, to start with, and then, if time permits, we’ll move into more general Bible questions. Zane.
Well, the course that I am teaching for Chafer Theological Seminary is New Testament textual criticism, and it is a study of the Greek manuscripts through which our New Testaments have been handed down to us. And I want to assure you that I would much rather socialize than spend all day thinking about the manuscripts, but necessity requires me to bury my nose in the books relevant to this course, and so I appreciate your understanding that.
I always preface a question-and-answer session by saying that very early in my career as a teacher at Dallas Seminary I found out that three of the most useful words in the English language are, “I don’t know.” And if you hear them tonight, don’t be surprised. I’ve used them frequently over the years, and will probably have to use them again.
Well, your esteemed pastor lined me up with questions, and I’m sincerely hoping that you will ask enough follow-up questions of your own afterwards that we can prevent him from asking the questions he asked me in the car. So think, Ernest, about matters on which you’re curious, and let’s see if we can go the whole hour and just shut Pastor Rutherford out, shall we?
Now I’m going to go through my answer to all four of these questions, and then I’m going to open it up, and you can ask follow-up questions on any of the four here. And when we’ve exhausted those, then we’ll proceed to new questions.
The first question was, do believers receive an intermediate body when they die and go to be with the Lord until the day their physical bodies are raised out of the grave? I think I was set up here, because we’ve already been told that Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer held to the view of an intermediate body, and I have the highest esteem for Dr. Chafer, the founder of the seminary. But I personally do not think there is any evidence in the New Testament, not in 2 Corinthians 5 either, for an intermediate body. So I believe that after our initial bodies are laid in the grave, the next body we will be in is the resurrection body.
The second question was, in the resurrection and the Rapture, how will our relationship to time and space change? Well, I really should answer this by saying, “I don’t know,” but I have some speculations. And the only thing I want to say in regard to those is this. We all know, I guess, that under the theory of relativity the speed of the observer, as he moves through space, or as his frame of reference moves through space, determines the passage of time. And so time is relative to the speed of the observer, or the speed of the frame of reference.
It seems plausible to me that when the Lord comes and transforms us into our immortal bodies, that the speed at which we may move, the speed at which our molecules and atoms may move, may be quite different, and that time will pass much more quickly for us. If, as I think the Scriptures imply, when we are raptured we will be with the Lord for seven years in the clouds, this sounds like a long time to us, to be up in the clouds. Some of us spend days in the clouds, I guess, figuratively speaking, and we probably are not enticed by the thought of spending seven years in the clouds. But I suspect that if that is the case, that the time will pass rapidly.
We will, in that particular situation, be able—I think we’ll have to wait till we get there—but I think we will be able to observe the events on earth. And my suspicion is that our observance of the things that are being fulfilled on earth will be like watching a motion picture, that they will go rapidly for us, and that we will see the fulfillment of the things that we’ve read about throughout all our lives.
The third question was, what role will the Old Testament law have in the times following the Rapture? I’m not sure whether that question is intended to include the seventieth week of Daniel or not. But if it does include the seventieth week of Daniel, it seems to me that we do have evidence that the Jewish temple will be rebuilt, and that although Israel at that time will be mainly unbelieving, that it will be reinstituting its sacrificial system until that is stopped by the man of sin.
And the believing Israelites, who become believers in Jesus Christ during the first half-week, will probably not be allowed to do anything in connection with the Jewish temple, and will not be in a position to observe the stipulations of the Jewish law to any great extent. But obviously they will be under persecution, and so they will do, I think, whatever they are able to do in obedience to the Old Testament law, but will not feel constrained to pursue it in all of its minute details.
It does appear to me from passages in Ezekiel that there will be a temple established during the Millennium, and the reinstitution of animal sacrifices. Of course, these animal sacrifices have no atoning value, because the atoning work of the cross is sufficient for all time and for all ages. And we would assume, those of us who do believe that there will be a temple and a sacrificial system in the kingdom, would draw the conclusion that the sacrifices are memorial, very much in the sense that the Lord’s Supper is a memorial of the death of our Lord, but it will be a memorial that will be meaningful to the Israelites of that day.
The fourth question: are lost people judged and condemned because they have not believed in Jesus Christ, John 3:18, or because of their works, Revelation 20:12? They are judged according to their works, Revelation 20 tells us, but they are condemned on the basis of the fact that their names are not written in the Book of Life. And the reason, of course, that their names are not written in the Book of Life is because they have not believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
As I have often said about the final judgment that is described in Revelation 20, I think it’s very important that the text itself specifies the opening of two sets of books. On the one hand, there are the books in which the works of the individuals are written, and on the other hand the Book of Life is opened. And then we are told that those who stand before the great white throne are judged according to the things that are written in the books, according to their works.
And I happen to believe that that’s a necessary function of final judgment. Literally thousands of people have died under the conviction that their works are good enough to get them to heaven, despite the very clear statements of the Bible that our works are not good enough to get us to heaven. Innumerable people have gone out into eternity thinking that when they stand before the final judgment of God, that God will accept them on the basis of their works. Now it would hardly be a full, or complete, or fair judgment for God not to review the works of individuals who are there, regardless of whether they thought they would be accepted on the basis of their works or not, because the works will show, in detail and for the specific individuals, what the Scriptures enunciate for all individuals, that by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, because by the law is the knowledge of sin.
And the bottom-line result of judgment according to the things written in those books will be that everyone will stand condemned on the basis of their works. But since the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of all the world, that is not the basis on which they are sent to hell. And according to Revelation chapter 20, we’re told that
whoever’s name was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.
It is important for us to understand, because one of the theological controversies that sometimes disrupts the professing churches is the issue of the sufficiency and completeness of the atonement that Jesus made on the cross. And there are a group of people—we will not specify them any further than that—who hold that Christ only died for the sins of the elect, and did not die for the sins of the non-elect. And their argument is that if He had died for the sins of the non-elect, then everybody would be saved.
That’s an error in theology, because although man has no claim before God on the basis of his works, and although he is condemned on the basis of his sin, the fact that he is a sinner leaves him in a state of spiritual death. So what man needs is not only an atonement that covers all his sins, and frees God to deal with him graciously, he needs also to receive the gift of life from God.
And so what we have in the unsaved person is a person for whom Christ truly died, and for whom He paid the price for that man’s or that woman’s sins, and those sins will never be used as the basis of condemnation to hell. But that person who is unsaved remains dead spiritually, alienated from the life of God. And the only way to receive life, so that we are in a position to live with God and share God’s life in eternity, is through faith in Christ. That is why, in the final analysis, the issue that decides heaven and hell is the issue of the Book of Life.
Whoever’s name was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Now one of the things we need to keep in mind, I think, is that in the Gospel of John the point that is emphasized is the possession or non-possession of eternal life. You will look through the Gospel of John a long time before you find references to the forgiveness of sins. You eventually find one, but it doesn’t relate to individual salvation. But the issue in terms of the relationship of the individual to Christ is always an issue of eternal life.
We know that from John 3:16, don’t we?
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should receive forgiveness of sins.
No,
that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And we could go on and on.
Most assuredly, I say to you,
he that believes on Me has forgiveness of sins.
No.
He that believes on Me has everlasting life.
Over and over and over and over again in the Gospel of John.
So the issue between man and God, in terms of eternity, is, do you have eternal life, or do you not have eternal life? The issue is not, did Christ die for you or not? Christ did die for you. He died for everybody. He is “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.” But the issue is, do you have everlasting life?
All right, how about follow-up questions on any one of these four questions that I have attempted to answer on? And they can be in any order. You don’t need to refer to the first question or the second question, whatever you want to ask about these four areas of discussion. Any questions? Follow-up questions? Yes, right here.
Well, if I am correct in saying that we will be in the clouds with the Lord Jesus Christ, we will obviously be in a position where we could observe it. I want to say facetiously—I’m not making fun of you—if you want to shut your eyes and not watch, I’m sure that will be permissible. But the fact is that in the Book of Revelation the judgments of the tribulation period are presented as the judgments of the Lamb. It is the Lamb who is executing judgment.
And in our glorified condition we will be completely focused on the Lamb and on what He is doing, and what He is carrying out. I believe that we will look at what is happening on earth with different eyes than we now look at it, because right now we are sinners. And if we think in terms of mass deaths, we’re unable to process that kind of information in a way that is in any way less than horribly unpleasant to us.
But let’s remember that the moment we see Christ we’re going to be like Him. If Christ is able to execute God’s judgments in that way, in His holy humanity, we’ll be able to watch. And I think we will learn something from it. Among other things, we will learn the precise way in which God’s words are fulfilled, and we will see God’s wisdom being worked out in the judgments that He pours out on mankind.
The tribulation is a lot more than just simply a series of devastations. It is the outworking of God’s righteous judgment in response to the way in which man has rejected Him, and it is, in the long run, the fulfillment of God’s purposes on earth, to bring to pass a kingdom under the governance of His Son. We’re going to be interested in that. We will have the spiritual fortitude and wisdom to watch it properly. That doesn’t mean we’re going to rejoice in it, but it means that we will be able to see it with God’s eyes. If God is able to do it, we will be able to look at it. Yes, right here.
Okay, in 2 Corinthians 12 Paul’s relating his experience. He says,
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
Now he went up, but he did not know if he was in his own body or not. It kind of makes me wonder, how can we know all that you’re saying we will know, because we’ll be focused on the Lamb, when this guy went to heaven, heard some things, and didn’t know some things also? Well, why was he so confused about his body, and why did he even bother to mention it? And was he raptured? I mean, is this going to be like—I’m trying to liken this to what’s going to happen when the Lord returns. Maybe that’s my error in thinking.
Yeah, I don’t think they’re quite analogous. But let me also say that what we’ve said here about watching all of this, this is inference that I am drawing from Scriptures. If it doesn’t seem to cohere with your understanding of the Scriptures, I’m not bothered by that at all.
I think, however, that we can say of the passage you’ve referred us to that this is an experience of a vision, which is quite different than the kind of experience we will be having. And what Paul is really saying is that in this vision he doesn’t know whether he was physically caught up or just spiritually caught up. And I would say that there’s no real analogy between the two.
Right back here. James, I think, is the questioner.
I’ve always thought that the judgment seat of Christ would take place, basically, during that seven-year period. What is your thought on that? And if there are potentially millions, or however many, believers prior to that, who will need to be judged before we come down for the thousand-year reign, what’s your take on that?
That’s a good question, and I’m often asked when I think the judgment seat of Christ is going to be. And my answer again on that is, “I don’t know.” However, you have made a very good point, and that is that if the judgment seat of Christ is intended to take place after we’re caught up into the clouds with the Lord, there will be seven years in which to do it with all of the countless saints who will be gathered together with Him at that point. So it is not inconceivable to me that the judgment seat of Christ might be during that seven-year period.
If I were guessing, however—and that’s what I am doing—if I were guessing at the time of the judgment seat of Christ, I am inclined to guess that it will take place between the end of the seventieth week and the commencement of the official commencement of the kingdom. According to Daniel 12, there are a couple of extended periods of days in there that are not accounted for by any events that we know in prophecy, and therefore it seems likely to me that that period of time may be utilized for the purposes of the judgment seat of Christ.
We do know that the judgment of the sheep and the goats in Matthew chapter 25 apparently occurs when He first comes, but that’s a judgment of living people, so that’s not the same thing as the judgment seat of Christ. But it would be reasonable to think that the judgment seat of Christ might follow that. But frankly, I don’t know. And I think your point is good, that if it’s in that seven-year period, there certainly is time for it.
Oh, you may be right. You may be right about that. If, however, there is an interpolary period here between the seventieth week and the official commencement of the kingdom, it would be possible to think of the awards being formally given out during that period. I’m sure that you’re right in saying that by the time the kingdom commences, the role that we will have in the kingdom will have been determined by the judgment seat of Christ. That certainly seems reasonable.
C.J.
Actually, it’s back to the in-the-clouds. I was thinking of Hebrews 12:1, you know, “Since there’s such a great cloud of witnesses.” Do we become part of that cloud? Just end times or not end times, I see we become part of that cloud in my opinion.
C.J., the reference to the cloud of witnesses is a metaphor, and he is really referring to the worthies of the Old Testament. And he’s saying there’s a whole bunch of them, you know. He uses the cloud metaphor because he thinks of them as being in heaven, in the sky, but I don’t think he’s being literal with the terminology cloud.
Zane, one thing that I wanted to follow up on, your question about the forty-five-day period. You mentioned Daniel. I know that you take, and I would agree, to some extent, the entire millennial kingdom would be equivalent to the marriage feast of the Lamb. But there also seems to be, in some sense, a literal marriage feast that may precede, at least in my mind, and I wondered how we would tie in where the Lord said regarding the cup that He drank with the disciples on the night before He was betrayed, He said, “I won’t drink it again until I return in the kingdom,” at least that’s the impression I got. But you can clarify my thinking.
Well, of course, He also says to them that
you will sit at My table and eat and drink with Me in My kingdom.
There will be tables and meals and eating and drinking in the kingdom. It will be a general earthly kingdom. But I don’t see any evidence for a literal wedding feast.
I see. Okay. Somebody else have a question? Yes, right here. Hold on, Pat.
In the Book of Luke chapter 15 Jesus is talking. Verse 7, He says,
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents.
Now stop there. Does that indicate that people that we know now that are dead are interested in what goes on here?
I think He has mainly in mind the angels, because He mentions the angels in one of the parables there, does He not?
I looked all afternoon, and it didn’t talk about angels in that particular—
Not in that particular one, but in 15:10.
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
That’s 7, right?
Ten. Verse 10 also.
Oh, so that seems to repeat the idea of 7, but to introduce the angels into that. When the parable talks about him calling together his friends and neighbors, I am inclined to think that’s also a reference to the angels.
As you may know, I understand all three parables of Luke 15 as parables of returning Christians, not parables related to the salvation of individuals. So, for example, in the case of the ninety-nine sheep, the sheep that wanders off is the one that needs to be recovered, and the ninety-nine are individuals who are righteous individuals, who do not have need for repentance. So I think this is an image of the Christian church, and of the flock of the Lord Jesus Christ, individual churches. And the idea is that someone may slip away from the Lord and slip away from the church, and the Lord looks for him and seeks to bring him back into the fold, something like that.
But that when this happens, heaven is happy, and the angels are happy over that. And of course the inference is, we should be too. If we are a member of Grace Bible Church, and some member of this church gets away from the Lord and drifts into the pathway of sin, and then returns to God and returns to the church, we ought to rejoice over that too, because the Lord rejoices, and the angels rejoice, and heaven rejoices.
But what happens sometimes is, we say, “They’re going too easy on him,” or “Put him on probation,” or something, you know, that sort of thing. So one of the messages—not the only message—from this passage is the importance of rejoicing over our brothers and sisters who return to the Lord after going astray. Next.
Fred, you got your mic.
A question about the law that I kind of posed there, especially during the Millennium. I was really trying to follow up with, I think the last time you were here and you were speaking on the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5:17, when Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law. I think you said that He was saying, not only in His own life, but in the sense that He was King, that He was going to hold people to the highest standard in following the law. And then you also mentioned Zechariah 14 with calling other nations to come up to the Feast of Tabernacles.
Yes.
And if they didn’t do so, that there was judgment upon them, and so forth.
Right.
What degree are Gentiles going to be held to the law? And also, what is going to be the role of the law in the Millennium? Is it to bring people to a knowledge of sin? Or is it also going to be a means of sanctification for people? That’s sort of the question.
Well, I want to say, “I don’t know,” to that general question. Let me, however, try to address some points in it, and Fred, feel free to follow up with this. It seems to me that what we will have, certainly in the initial thousand years of the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, is the era of Solomon in perfection.
Now the Solomonic era was certainly the high point in the Israelite kingdom in all of its history, and Solomon the most glorious and splendid of all its kings. The temple was built, and worship was engaged in in the temple, and Israel was at the top of the pile. In fact, secular information shows us that other nations of the Middle East were somewhat in decline, and so it is likely that Solomon was the most powerful king in the Middle East of his day. He certainly went through a reign that involved no warfare. He was sufficiently strong to repulse it, but he didn’t have any real challenges.
So it seems to me that is the precursor image here, and that the relationship that the Israelite had to the Jewish system under Solomon, and the relationship that the Gentile had to the Jewish system under Solomon, will to some extent be replicated in the kingdom. So the Queen of Sheba comes, for example, to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and no doubt she is careful about her behavior while she’s there, and doesn’t violate any of the religious taboos of Israel. That would have been a rudeness on the part of someone coming like this.
But at the same time, we don’t exactly envisage the Queen of Sheba going into the temple and worshiping. Maybe she did. I don’t know. But she doesn’t become Jewish in that kind of a context. But she is reverent and respectful of Israel and of Israel’s king. So I think that’s kind of the image that we ought to conjure up here. But the details of it, I think, we will have to wait and see what they will actually be. Now feel free to follow up on that if you’d like to.
I think that’s pretty good. So what you’re saying is that there will be certain, perhaps, responsibilities or things that Jesus will ask of nations to respectfully do, and so forth.
That’s right.
In no sense are they going to be held to the law?
That’s right. Egypt, for example—you’ve referred to the passages in Zechariah—it may well be that under this King it will be a universal requirement for every nation at least to have representatives at the Feast of Tabernacles. That doesn’t mean that every nation will observe the Jewish law in all its details, but this is an important occasion, like a celebration of July the 4th in Washington, D.C., or something like that. And on this important occasion the Gentile nations are expected to be, representatively at least, present for that occasion.
Those who refuse to do this will be judged for their failure to live up to this responsibility. So it will be up—you know, this is one of the things we’ll have to wait and see exactly how it plays out in detail. And there may be other things that were part of the Jewish system that the King will ask the Gentiles to observe. One can easily imagine what some of those things might be, but in the final analysis we have to wait and see exactly how that plays out.
Thank you. John Niemelä has a question. Let me get John. Don’t ask your question until I get the mic over to you, because we want to get it on tape.
With regard to Fred’s question about the Gentiles and the law in the kingdom, we of course know that Gentiles were not placed under it, because within the Old Testament it was a theocracy in Israel, and Gentiles, unless they became proselytes or resident aliens, were not under its jurisdiction. Within the church it’s not a civil government either, so therefore it doesn’t have the same types of civil functions. But as you were indicating, there becomes civil functions under the theocracy in the Millennium, which will be the first time the Gentiles will be under the theocracy.
That’s a good way of putting it. I think that’s nicely stated. Okay, someone else? Great questions tonight. Okay has another question.
You mentioned the sacrificial system being reinstated. Will that be with real animals? You said something about memorial.
Yes, I think that will be with real animals, and there will be real death. But remember that in the Millennium death can occur.
The sinner being a hundred years old and dying shall be accursed.
There is a rebellion at the end of the thousand years, and a great company that no man could number is crushed by the fire and brimstone that God sends down from heaven. So there are many deaths at that time.
I think we have to assume that because those who were born in the Millennium in ordinary human bodies, and grew up in it, are still sinners, that even if the lifespan is greatly extended, which I suspect will be, that nevertheless death will be the inevitable result of that unless God intervenes in some way to transform the individual before he dies. So an unsaved person who lives through X number of years of the Millennium will eventually die because he’s a sinner.
Now what happens to those who—let me just say something here, Pat, because your question opens—I don’t want to call it a Pandora’s box. It’s not exactly a Pandora’s box. It’s an interesting perspective here. I think that our view of the Millennium, despite the information that the Scriptures give us on this, such as, for example, the judgment of Egypt for not coming up to the Feast of Tabernacles, if we didn’t have that passage we would think, who in the world in the Millennium would think of refusing to come up to Jerusalem when Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the King? Well, Egypt apparently will think of it. How do we think of it but do it?
And not only that, after Satan is released from his thousand-year imprisonment, there will be a great multitude of people who are prepared to rebel against the King. Now that strikes us as being inconceivable, but it’s really not. Let’s remember that when Jesus is here, no doubt He will be glorious, but He will look like a man, because He is a man, and it will be possible for unbelieving people to develop scenarios by which they will refuse belief in the King.
And one of the scenarios that might happen—please understand, this is me speculating, okay?—but given the extensive history of science-fiction literature, just take that particular point, the idea might arise in the Millennium that the current King and these unusual creatures who are called angels, who support His authority, and these apparently deathless individuals who are with Him and who are sharing in His reign over the world, the idea might occur to people that this represents an invasion of aliens from out of outer space, and that, as a matter of fact, the earth is under the domination of an invader, and these are the interstellar creatures who have come through the vast reaches of space and have taken possession of our world, and it would be very nice if we could get it back. And when Satan is released, he will foster the notion in one form or another that you can take it back. This King is vulnerable. His armies are vulnerable.
All of this sounds fantastic to us, right, when we think about it, but that’s the kind of unbelief that exists today. Unreasonable in the face of all facts, people who don’t want to believe don’t want to believe, and they will find all sorts of reasons for not believing. And the solemn bottom line of the Millennium is that when a thousand years have passed, and Jesus has reigned with a perfect government over the world for a thousand years, there will be hundreds of thousands of people who want to throw off His control. That’s the Millennium.
And if we think that’s going to be boring for us, we have another thing coming. And those who will be in the government will have their hands full, right? Because Pat gets a city. I’m assuming Pat will get a city or two or three or four or ten, who knows? Pat will have some unbelievers in that city. She will have some people who are interested in breaking the laws as unobtrusively as they can, because under this government it’s pretty hard to get away with stuff, but you try to get away with stuff. And so whoever is in charge of the city has to deal with that.
Okay, so I think that what lies ahead is of great interest for all of us. And, you know, the scenario I have offered you is obviously maybe a hundred miles off target, but some scenario of that kind is required to fulfill the Scriptures, whether it’s that scenario or another scenario, or something. Right over here.
You sparked an interest in my mind, a question in my mind, when you were talking about Satan in the end and his rebellion. How is it that the most high created being can think that he can overcome his Creator? Do you have any—is there any indications in Scripture that say how in the world this doesn’t logically—it doesn’t follow from our minds, as created beings, that we are greater than the Creator? And the Bible talks about the fate of Satan. He knows the Word of God because he’s able to use it to his benefit. It’s just like, is God pulling the wool over his eyes, or what?
Well, first of all, I want to say, “I don’t know.” Let’s say that first. And second thing, Satan’s primary sin apparently is pride, and it’s surprising what proud people can decide they are capable of. And if you were the highest and most beautiful and the most intelligent of all created beings, pride might convince you that you may be successful.
It’s interesting, by the way, in the Book of Job that the devil says, you know, “Please don’t be surprised that Job serves You, because You give him everything and protect him, and if You just take everything away from him, he’ll curse You to Your face.” And God says, “Okay, do that. Just leave him alive.” So he takes everything away, and Job doesn’t curse Him. So Satan comes back into the presence of God and says, “I made a mistake.” Have you noticed? “My servant Job, even though You moved me against him, yet he maintains his integrity.” “Oh well,” says Satan, “that’s because You wouldn’t let me touch him. Skin for skin. All that a man has he will give for his life. Just let me touch his body and he will curse You to Your face.”
Despite his defeat in round one, he doesn’t accept that he’s been defeated. God’s to blame for this, because He wouldn’t let me do this, and I can certainly get Job to do this. And another thing that’s interesting about that is that he reads his own motivations into Job. It’s not possible in his mind that Job is actually serving God from the heart. Satan is so corrupt he can’t imagine that. So there must be a reason. There must be a reason that Job serves God faithfully. Well, let me give this another try. Just make sure that this message gets through to Job. Let me put it in the mind of his wife. “You still maintain your integrity? Curse God and die.” And Satan is defeated again.
So here is a creature of immense intelligence, of shrewd psychology, who thinks he can beat God. I think that tells us something along the lines of the question that you’ve had.
I got a very interesting website forwarded to me last week, and I believe it was called raptureletters.com.
I’ve heard everything. Go ahead.
The premise behind it was, you put your email addresses of your friends that aren’t saved, and after the Rapture happens, this thing will automatically shoot an email out to them letting them know what happened. It was quite funny, and my friend that works with me, he was a Calvinist, got a real big kick out of it. Doesn’t believe in the Rapture. But will people who are alive during the Rapture and go into the tribulation, will they get a second chance?
Well, there is a statement in 2 Thessalonians 2, as you know, that God will send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie, that they all might be condemned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. This is in a context where it’s discussing the deception brought by the man of sin. And I think I would interpret that as people who had previously rejected the truth, and when the man of sin makes his appearance, they will fall for him.
But it does not necessarily refer—it does not refer—to people who have not been exposed to the truth, and have not as yet rejected it. And as we know, there will be a very productive and fruitful evangelistic campaign during the last three and a half years.
A great multitude, whom no man could number,
who come out of the Great Tribulation, and they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb.
So these are people who don’t fall into the trap of the man of sin. And the obvious reason for it is that they haven’t, prior to hearing the gospel from the evangelists of that period of time, they haven’t rejected the gospel.
Many years ago I was at a Young Life meeting, and we were talking a little bit about these things, and afterwards a Chinese girl came up to me, and, you know, take this for what it’s worth, she said, “Have you noticed,” she said, “that since the gospel began in Jerusalem, it seems to have—its center of gravity seems to have moved gradually westward? So we move westward through Western Europe, and then we kind of leave Western Europe behind, and we move westward through America, kind of leave America behind.” And she thought that the revival of the tribulation period would be in the Third World.
Well, already, of course, we have a lot of evangelism successfully done in Korea and so on, and so maybe those densely populated areas over there, China and India, will be the most fruitful territory for the gospel during the tribulation period. But I think the passage only refers to those who have previously heard the gospel and refused it. Yes, Katie has a question, I think.
Different during those seven years, or after we’re raptured, or we have our new bodies, does that carry over into the thousand years also? Is that going to go by real fast? I mean, I know you don’t know.
Yeah, I don’t know. That’s a funny thought, but my suspicion is that if time will move much more rapidly for us—I’m in my seventies now, and it appears to me that the years are going faster as I get older. That’s probably partly an illusion, but almost all older people agree with that. And it’s partly that you’ve had all these years behind you, and one year at seventy is a short span of time in reference to the totality of your life.
So imagine ourselves equipped for eternity, to live forever and forever and forever. I don’t think you’re going to see them as very long. I doubt it very, very, very much. I doubt it very much. So I think it’ll go fast, but I think it’ll be every bit as interesting, and more so, than the life we’ve lived on earth. Bob—Bruce here, I think. All right. Was there another hand up? All right.
I don’t know if it fits into those four questions, but there’s a few places in Matthew and Luke where it talks about worthless servants being cast into the outer darkness. And there’s different views of those who believe in grace theology as far as whether that refers to, you know, a difficult time, you know, at the judgment seat of Christ, you know, mourning over what could have been, or not. I know you take the view that it does, and I just wondered, what are the arguments in favor of that, or perhaps not? Both sides, whatever.
Yeah, well, let me try to answer that briefly, since we do have some chapters on that, I think, in Grace in Eclipse, and I’ve forgotten whether I have it in Gospel Under Siege. But basically what I hold is that the parables involved in this phrase, “the outer darkness”—and by the way, they’re all in Matthew, there are three of them—that these are parables, and the outer darkness is not a literal place.
The parables have other aspects to them which we instantly recognize as not literal. One of them, of course, is, you know, the talents, and he buries the talent, wraps it in a napkin, and nobody takes that literally. But when they get to the end of the parable and hear about outer darkness, they take that literally. So we ought to consistently interpret these passages as parabolic.
And then, in my view at least, the image of the outer darkness is the image of an estate, a big estate, where there is a building with a wedding celebration going on, and the building is brightly lighted, and the people who are inside the building are enjoying the joys of the wedding celebration, and on the grounds outside, you know, you’re not allowed to get in, but you’re just out there. So it’s a parable, in my judgment, of exclusion from the joys of the wedding celebration, which in my view would be the privilege of co-reigning with Jesus Christ.
Now it would take longer than I think it’s worth taking right now to try to demonstrate all those points, but if you’re interested you can probably pick them up from the books that we’ve written there. But that’s essentially it. What I want to emphasize is, I do not believe that any Christians will be in a dark place crying over their affairs on earth. That is turning a parable into a literal reality, and that’s, in my judgment, an illegitimate exegetical procedure.
I saw a hand or two in here. The gentleman sitting next to Jeff, did you have your hand up, sir? Evidently not. That’s done. I thought—well, yeah, the four questions are just to get things started, so if you want to ask one question, we’re going to need to wrap this up in, say, about five minutes.
Yeah, we’ll hold it to five minutes.
For example, Numbers—this relates to the Book of John, John chapter 3. But in chapter 21 of Numbers, when it says,
Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole, and it shall be that when everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on a pole, so that if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
And then you go to the Book of John 3:14, and it says,
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Some of us were speaking about that the other night, and were discussing about whether or not, when a person—in John 3—where a person would just look at Jesus Christ being lifted up on the cross, and they would look with belief, and they would have eternal life, and that, I think, is what’s going on in John chapter 3.
But then we look at the comparison between the Numbers passage, where people would have been bitten by serpents. Would they have had to—we were discussing that—it really doesn’t say in context that they had to look with belief. It was more like a look, just looking, and whether they believed or not, or looked like, “Yeah, sure,” kind of attitude. Could you speak to that?
Well, what I would want to say there is that it seems to me that what Jesus is doing is using a literal incident that involves a physical affliction and a physical healing, with an actual physical look at the brazen serpent. He is using a physical illustration of the spiritual reality of looking at Him in faith and finding eternal life. And that we would be making a mistake to press the details of the analogy as though they determine the theology of the Gospel of John.
The Gospel of John itself determines its own theology, and if we read the whole book, it is very clear to us what He means by believing in Christ and getting eternal life. But this is one of many ways that John has of illustrating this experience. It is by no means the only way. So another way is taking a drink of water. No literal drink of water is taken by us when we get saved, but we all understand the analogy.
Okay, we’ll take one more question here with James.
Okay, James, we’ll give you the—
I’ll try to keep this within thirty seconds.
All right.
In Revelation, where it talks about the saints that have died in that period, and they’re concerned about the others who are still suffering—“How long must this go on?”—that type of thing, I’m assuming they have not received their glorified bodies yet at that point, and is that also alluding to what you had talked about, that we will know what’s going on throughout that seven-year period because they’re apparently concerned about it, or is that because of the—
Yeah, well, James, you were referring to the passage in Revelation 6 where the souls under the altar are crying out to God, is that right? And I think we do have to remember that, especially in Revelation, there is a very large amount of imagery. And the preceding seals have horseback riders, and this seal has souls under the altar crying out to God.
I’m not at all sure that it would be appropriate for us to try to fit that tightly into some time and place. I think the message of that image is that there are those who have laid down their lives for the Lord, and they are wondering how much longer this type of thing has to go on until God steps in and executes judgment. The more literal side of this is presented, it seems to me, in the parable of the widow woman who keeps coming to the judge and banging on his door and asking for revenge on her adversary, and he puts her off for a while.
And our Lord Himself applies this to the end times, and He says, “When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?” God will avenge His elect, even though He is long-suffering with them, even though He puts them off for a while. And so what is presented in this image, it seems to me, in Revelation 6, is the fact that there is an anxiousness on the part of those who laid down their lives for Christ to see this whole process come to a rapid end, and yet God is going to bring it to an end, but not before His purposes are realized and accomplished, something like that. But I think it would be a mistake to make it fit too tightly into a scenario.
Okay, Zane, thank you so much. An excellent job.